Voices Unlocked
We share unvarnished stories from inside America's federal prison system to touch hearts and change minds.
Voices Unlocked
Bonding Behind Bars: Parenting from Prison
Imagine being separated from your children by thousands of miles and concrete walls -- for years and even decades. This is the reality that our guests, Robert Davis and Ron Hill, courageously share as they recount their struggle to parent from the confines of prison. They share their secrets to maintaining and even strengthening bonds with children, from participating in parenting classes to creating interactive stories. Their stories are testaments to the power of hope, resilience and love.
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PAM BAILEY: Hello, I'm Pam Bailey. I'm co-host of Voices Unlocked, a podcast produced by More Than Our Crimes, with the goal of bringing the humanity inside federal prison out to you so you see the need for prison reform. And this episode today is focusing on parenting from prison. I think one of the most common things I talk about when I communicate with, particularly, men in prison is their kids. It's about struggle, because maybe they can't get the mother of the child to pick up the phone and put them in touch with the child, or maybe the teenager is like just not talkative. I think the latest statistics out from the federal government is that about 42% of people in federal prison have a minor child. They're mostly fathers, and the average age is 10 years old.
So, joining me today is Robert Davis, who got out in 2015 after 21 years, and has a very particular contribution to this topic, because not only was his father incarcerated, so he understands what it's like, but also had a child himself that he was trying to stay close to. And I'm going to have Robert tell you more of his story.
ROBERT DAVIS: Thank you so much. Unfortunately, I did have my father incarcerated, and I don't know, it kind of just kept going, I guess. Because when I went to prison, of course, I was away from my daughter. I think it started back, even before I was born, though, with my father, because my father was in and out, in and out, in and out. And it seems like he came home and made a child then went back, and so on and so forth. So I really didn't get a chance to see a lot of my father in the beginning. Because yes, he was always gone. But it started way before my time.
PAM: And how old was your daughter when you went into prison?
ROBERT: Unfortunately, my daughter was 11 months old when I went to jail. And I didn't come home until she was 22 and a half, so that was a long stretch.
PAM: And what would you identify as the biggest...Well, the barriers to parenting are obvious. It's you're away, you're behind bars, etc. But what did you find were the greatest determinants of whether or not you could stay in touch and stay close?
ROBERT: One of the biggest is distance, I think. Distance, I don't know, as much as you can place a call, even now that we have FaceTime, which we didn't have back when I was in prison, but as much as we have those aids, distance is sometimes insurmountable, I think. And I think, you know, your kids can just feel that distance.
PAM: And for those of you don't know, all DC residents who are incarcerated are sent into the federal system, since DC does not have his own prison any longer. And that means they're scattered all over the country, unlike like people in the state prisons. So, a DC resident could be in California; my cofounder of More Than Our Crimes is in Florida. And that makes it extremely difficult to visit regularly.
ROBERT: It definitely does. I've had the opportunity to be in a state prison. Because when I first got sentenced, our state prison was open then: in Lorton, Virginia. And then I was there for the transition when you know, Lorton closed, and then I was sent to Allenwood, Pennsylvania, still sort of close, sort of close, but it's not 25 minutes down the road. So, I think that's when some of the barriers started to really pop up. And then of course, after Allenwood, Pennsylvania, I was sent to Atwater, California.
PAM: California is the worst, right? It's the furthest away.
ROBERT: And I spent eight years there. So, to go from probable contact, to sometimes contact, to no contact, you really have to be innovative if you want to maintain your relationship, or establish it. You have to be innovative. I got help. I went to every parenting class I could find just to get ideas, try to get tools that I could use in my conversations, to learn more about my kids so that when I do have the opportunity for communication, I could touch on things that would stimulate their mind.
PAM: That is a very good segue to the introduction of the individual I interviewed who's still in prison. His name is Ron Hill. He's from Minnesota. His family is in Minnesota, and he's currently in the Hazleton prison complex in West Virginia. So, a good distance.
What impressed me about Ron: He has five children. And what I figured out right away when talking to him, is that he really, really cares about his kids. And as you'll hear, he has some very creative ways that's tailored and customized to each of his kids to stay in touch. I also recorded an interview with his oldest daughter, Haley, who is in Minnesota, and she was born after he went into prison. She was 4 years old before she ever met him. It was always a bit of trying to parent from a distance. And what you're going to hear in the first interview with Ron... He'll talk a little bit about that.
RON HILL: I've been in prison for six and a half years now. My oldest daughter was 14 at the time, she's 22 now. My twin daughters, they're 15 now; they were 8 at the time. And my son was 5, and he's 12 now. And then my youngest daughter, she turns 9 years old a week from now. And she was almost 2 years old when I last saw her. And my youngest one, my youngest daughter, her name is Berlin. I haven't had any contact with her or seen her or have any way means of communicating with her at all. She's the only one that I haven't kind of been able to try to build back a relationship with since I've been in here. So, I know, I got that work cut out for me when I get out of here.
But on the bright side, she will be 9 years old. So there's plenty of time for me to be involved in her life, you know, at the earlier stages in her life. My oldest daughter, Haley, she was the one that we had talked about before, where it took me quite a bit of work to even get her back into my life for the first three-and-a-half years or so of my prison sentence. She, rightfully so, was upset with me for being in prison again. She felt like I was being selfish and made bad decisions that were selfish, and chose drugs and the lifestyle over her. And she was correct in assuming that, but I worked really hard at keeping up a one-sided communication or relationship with her and it paid off in dividends. So, you know, we have a healthy relationship, communicating with each other and I talk to her all the time.
PAM: In this next soundbite, you're going to hear from from Haylee. You've already heard from Ron, that when he went into prison this last time, that he's finishing up now, she just stopped talking to him. He was writing and writing and writing, and no response. So, we're gonna hear from Haylee. What was going on with her? What was she thinking about? And why was she not responding?
HAYLEE: I was struggling, because before he was incarcerated, he was also using [drugs] at that point. So, our relationship was very off and on before he went in. And I just had a lot of anger because I was reaching out toward him a lot and not getting anything back. And so, when he was incarcerated, I was just frustrated because he was reaching out to me for the first time in a while. And it took me like forever to finally give in and start talking to him again.
ROBERT: Yes, I can definitely understand and also relate to where Haley is coming from. There were times... My daughter's name is Shanaya. And there were times when, especially around that 13 to 15 age, when she was just angry. And she was angry at everything. I'm not there. I didn't call or, you know, it was everything. Anger, that was her go-to emotion. A lot of times, Shanaya would not talk to me. And it really did hurt my feelings. I would call, her mom would answer the phone, and they would be like, yeah, she's here, but she doesn't want to talk. Or it would be Shanaya who would hang up on me. And they would like, just crush me on the inside. So, yeah, I can definitely relate.
PAM: Well, I asked Haylee what finally got her to start responding to her dad. What's interesting is, it's good to know that she was reading his letters. She told me that when the letters came, she'd rip into them. You know, she was anxious and eager. She just wasn't responding. So then she explained what finally happened for her to decide, "I'm going to answer him."
HAYLEE: I don't know if there was necessarily like a breakthrough at any point. He never gave up on sending me stuff. And I've told him that was definitely a big reason why I started talking to him again, because he never gave up on his side. Even if I would go like an entire year without talking to him, he would still send me stuff on my birthday and Christmas, and just thinking-of-you letters. My sister also struggled with drug addiction for a while there and being there with her through that, and watching her try to make it with her kids, kind of was a little eye opening for me. And also, growing up and having a different perspective on the situation in general. I was like, yeah, maybe I should give my dad a chance at least one more time. And I'm glad that I did.
ROBERT: Pam, I do believe that Haylee did finally mature. I think that the passage of time helped her make the decision to write her dad back. But, you know, hearing them, I think that it's important that we don't give up. Ron never gave up. Ron kept writing. And if he had ever stopped, then I think Haylee would have just kept going with what was the norm. And I can definitely remember times when it seemed bleak when I was frustrated with Shanaya, or she was just standoffish, and I could have gave up or just, you know, wash my hands or waited for her. But I don't think that's the way: Keep going.
PAM: I mean, that's the difference. When you're at home with them... Listen, when my kid was that age, she was like that. You know, she was very noncommittal. I would ask about school and it was, "Fine." And that same kind of thing. But I was there, I could be in front of her face. And in prison, as you said, there's that distance. You just don't have that advantage. Well, the one thing that Ron talks about, that turned out to be really effective for him and his kids, all of his kids, is that they all had like an artistic flair. Ron does. He was a tattoo artist before he went in. He's also a talented writer and his kids inherited his love of art and creativity. And that means the written word as well. So, for instance, one thing that Ron has done is write poetry. And you're going to hear an actual poem he wrote for Haylee.
RON: This poem is called “Father I Am.” I wrote it about two and a half years ago, and about a year into my sobriety, and I still hadn't had communication with her up to that point in my prison sentence. I was about three and a half years into my sentence.
I told myself so long ago,
that unto to you
I would always be true.
That the fatherly love that I would show
would fulfill all hopes and dreams for you.
To myself, I swore a silent oath,
as I stared into your beautiful eyes,
that I would break this cycle for us both
of broken homes and grim goodbyes.
But amongst my passion and heart so true,
I wrestled with my inner demons.
The father you deserve best you never knew,
for so many selfishly addictive reasons.
I was supposed to be your protector and your pride.
I should have been there through it all.
But it seemed like no matter how hard I tried,
the heavier my heart, the harder I would fall.
Please believe, this is not what I wanted,
this division, in which I am barely a father.
For my dreams are plagued and constantly haunted.
My conscious is considerably bothered.
I still remember the blissful days
when I was the apple of your eye.
But now the reflection upon your gaze
is blurred from the tears which I made you cry.
I know that you thought that I did not care
whether in this life I would win or lose.
But if I could do it all over again,
I swear you would be the only high
that I would ever choose.
It truly distresses me, to depths unknown,
to know that I expelled such pain.
But the blame is mine and mine alone.
And to this I own with such guilt and shame.
If ever there were a way to convey
and somehow make you understand,
that no mere words could express or say
just how sorry I truly am.
But alas, I cannot change the past and right the wrongs
which I have made.
But perhaps I may one day prove at last
that my love for you will never fade.
I love you.
PAM: And it's not just poetry. Art, as I mentioned, was also very important in the way Ryan communicated with his kids. And Haylee talks about the fact that art turned out to be the common bond that not only worked with her, but her other siblings.
HAYLEE: I think he tries to connect to me mostly through art, because that's something that him and I share in common. So he'll send me lots of drawings that he's taken hours, days on. Very intricate drawings. And he does send me some of the books that he's written for the kids just to see, like what I think about it, if I have any ideas for him. He is very creative.
PAM: So, for the younger kids, this is actually what initially really caught my attention with Ron. He was talking about this interactive story he did with the younger children, his two twins in particular, and he would start a story, and he would mail it to them. And they would add to it or give him ideas: "Oh, you should, you know, make him do this, make him do that." Or let's introduce a dragon for a character, you know, something like that. And so he would take these suggestions, and he would do that. Now they have this storybook that they pass back and forth. This does require a cooperative mother to the kids, right, because she had to facilitate that. And it turned out to be a really effective way of keeping them engaged at a young age, when they aren't really conversationalists.
RON: My sister and I were talking and I was telling her about how I just felt like there was a lag in communication with me and my children. I just felt like there wasn't anything fresh to talk about. It was the same old, just kind of redundant, conversations. And she said, "Well, try writing them a story." You know, so I was like, "Okay." I thought it was actually like a good idea. So I sat down, and I wrote a little first chapter and illustrated it, you know, and sent it to them, and their mom read it to them, and the kids loved it. It opened up a whole new line of communication between us, where the kids had ideas and suggestions for the stories. Sometimes, I called them on the phone and we were able to talk about it. And it was just a really, really good rejuvenation of our relationship.
PAM: That is such an interesting project that Ron just talked about, this co-writing of a book, that he thinks could help other parents in prison and their kids stay in touch. So he's actually working now to develop that into a template for a class or workshop that could be held in prison for parents to better interact with their kids. Now, obviously, I think, it depends on the age of the child. A teenager would need a very different kind of story. You know, and you'll probably relate to this, he's really bogged down in prison bureaucracy to try to get the class approved, which is a shame, I think, because I hear about people in prison having creative ideas all the time for classes, and they try to get it approved, and it goes nowhere. But my next question for Haley was about whether or not she played any role with her siblings, to encourage them to maybe not make the mistake that she thinks she now did, which was to not be in touch. And this is what Haylee says.
HAYLEE: I try not to interfere with their relationship with my father too much. Just because I know when I was younger, when I was their age, and people were interfering in my relationship with my dad, it really frustrated me because it felt like I wasn't allowed to feel the way I was. So, I am just open for them to message me or call me and talk about how they're feeling. And then just let them know, like, this is how I felt when I was your age. And that's okay to feel that way. But you know that he is trying and etc.
ROBERT: I can remember being a kid and my older brother going to see my father, but I couldn't go. I just felt like, oh, I wanted to be him so bad. Or coming home from school and finding out that my dad called, but I missed his call. And like, my sister got to talk to him, or something like that. So I guess I can relate to both sides of Haylee's outlook.
PAM: I even relate to a certain extent. I got divorced. And my two children reacted very differently. My youngest daughter didn't talk to me for a while, because I was the one that left and my oldest daughter tried to pressure her: "Why don't you talk to mom, why don't you talk to mom?" And it probably depends on how you do it. But my youngest daughter didn't react very well to it. You know, she was like, "back off," you know. So it's a fine line. I think it's a very delicate subject but so important when you think about the role of family ties. What would you say about how important that is, that everybody works together to try to maintain those ties?
ROBERT: Well, I do believe it takes a village, especially when the male is gone. It takes an aunt, a cousin, an uncle. It takes the whole village to help, support, to get those strings to come together. Because there's so much pulling them apart. The biggest thing is distance. But you also have so many other things that you cannot provide for your child. So it takes everyone collectively to try. I think that to be successful, the more the merrier.
PAM: And, yeah, I tell you what, one of the most common threads I found to all the stories of all the individuals I've talked to in prison, is an absent father. I mean, I don't know, do you think there's a direct connection?
ROBERT: I don't know about studies, but I just know that I didn't have my dad. And somehow, someway, that real-life fact turned out to be the fact that I passed on to my daughter.
PAM: So, the other player that we haven't talked about when we think about parenting, is the other parent. It's most commonly the mother. Because if you look at the statistics, it's mostly fathers. So, what's really important, ideally, is to have the cooperation of the other parent. And next I asked Haylee about the role her mother played, especially during that time period when she wasn't talking to her dad.
HAYLEE: I really appreciate how my mom handled it. And she let me do what I thought was the best for me, because it was regarding my feelings, not hers. So, she allowed me to answer calls when I wanted to, and I didn't have to, if I didn't want to. She would encourage me a little bit like, "Hey, you haven't talked to your dad in a while. Maybe you should talk to him." And if I just said, "No, I don't feel like I want to. I'm not ready," she would just say, "Okay, it's your choice."
ROBERT: Unfortunately, I did spend a very long time in prison, 21 years. As I can recall, in the beginning, especially when it didn't set in yet that 21 years would be that, my daughter's mother helped out a lot. Like, she would bring her. She really played a big role in helping me out and establishing the things that I was trying to get across to my daughter and helping us out as far as letting me see her a lot. But unfortunately, things did change. You know, over the years, people feel different. So yes, I've experienced times when my daughter's mother wasn't cooperative at all. And it's unfortunate that the person who is closest to your child is the one that is not cooperative with you. The direct result is that nothing gets accomplished.
PAM: One of the individuals who I correspond with is going through a really agonizing situation right now. He sees his son, who's in his teens, starting to follow down his path. And that's the last thing that he wanted, the thing he feared all along. But the mother, she's also doing drugs, and there's so much anger and hurt and, the thing is, she holds all the power. She can choose not to pick up the phone, she can choose not to answer back. And so he feels totally helpless.
ROBERT: I can definitely agree about the helpless feeling. Writing into the abyss, calling into the abyss, begging into the abyss.
PAM: Yeah, I mean, just curious: Do you think that more could be done before people go into prison? I mean, if you had a support program, letting them know what to expect. I mean, when you think about what, what maybe is missing, in terms of support, does anything come to mind? Is something that would have helped?
ROBERT: Well, that's a great idea. If there was some type of service that could be provided to help glue families back together, that would be great. Especially if things were established before the parent even left. I have yet to see anything like that.
PAM: There isn't that I know.
ROBERT: Oh, my goodness, that would be great, though.
PAM: So as we close out this episode, I asked Ron, knowing what he's learned over this very painful period of time going in and out of prison, what advice would he give other parents who are maybe beginning this journey, on how to keep strong relationships with children?
RON: First of all, I want I want people to know that just because they're in prison, that doesn't mean that they can't be an active father in their kids' lives. You know, like, no matter where somebody is at, they can always still try to be the best father that they can be. Let the kids know, also, that even though their father is absent at home, he doesn't have to be absent in their life. He can still contribute and find a way to be involved, and be creatively involved, in their child's life.
PAM: And then I asked Haylee the same question: What advice would she give other kids?
HAYLEE: I would say, take your time. And do what you think is right when you're ready. But I definitely think that a breakthrough would be talking to your parent that's incarcerated and letting them know how you feel. And they should respond and let you know that it's okay to feel that way. I think the reason that we may not want to talk to our parents that are incarcerated is that when we feel like we're ready to talk to them and have that breakthrough, you feel guilty for not talking for so long. And then you feel scared that because you're so angry that you're going to just explode on them. So I think that it's important to talk to them and let them know how you're feeling. And if they're like my dad, he was very understanding.
PAM: And on that really inspiring note, we're going to end this episode. I hope if you liked it, you'll encourage your friends and family to listen to it and subscribe. Make sure you follow this podcast, whatever platform you're watching it on, so that when we produce other episodes, you'll get notified. Thank you so much.
