The Ripple Effect: Trauma, Crime and Second Chances

Have you ever wondered how childhood trauma influences criminal behavior or wrestled with the decision to forgive? Join us for a riveting episode of Voices Unlocked, in which we explore these thought-provoking questions with three unique guests:  Conrad Stewart, released from prison after 26 years; Ricardo Davis, who is still incarcerated; and Nana Dufier, a widow of a murder victim. Together, we explore the complex dynamics of crime, punishment and redemption —  and whether the divide between two different types of hurt people can be bridged.

We kick off the conversation with Conrad shedding light on the Incarceration Reduction Amendment Act (IRAA) - an act that offers a beacon of hope to those seeking a second chance at life. Then Nana courageously shares her personal journey as a widow, painting a vivid picture of the impact crime has had on her life. The unsettling increase in crime rates, particularly in DC, is also brought to the fore, underscoring the challenges of advocating for second chances. We then pivot to discuss the ripple effects of criminal behavior. Ricardo Davis, a guest voice, passionately talks about the Victim Impact classes in prison, a potential game-changer.

As we move to the final part of our discussion, we delve into the emotional labyrinth of forgiveness and redemption. We challenge you, our listeners, to reevaluate your preconceptions about forgiveness. Through Nana's heart-wrenching journey and the experiences shared by our guests, we offer a deeper insight into forgiveness as a personal process, and perhaps, a stepping stone towards true rehabilitation. 

In this episode of Voices Unlocked, we hope we spark an ongoing conversation on crime, punishment and forgiveness, and urge our listeners to consider these complex themes from various angles. We guarantee you an episode that isn't just thought-provoking, but heart-touching.

Follow this podcast so you'll be informed when new episodes are uploaded (twice a month). Meanwhile, read more stories and learn how you can contribute to reform; visit MoreThanOurCrimes.

Chapters

• 0:09 Bridging the Divide
• 9:48 Impact of Childhood Trauma on Criminal Behavior
• 12:54 Victim Impact Classes in Prisons
• 19:28 The Impact of Victim Education Programs
• 33:15 The Complexity of Forgiveness and Redemption
• 37:22 Exploring Forgiveness and Redemption

Transcript

PAM BAILEY: I am Pam Bailey. Welcome to Voices Unlocked, a podcast produced by More Than Our Crimes, a nonprofit that's dedicated to bringing voices inside federal prison out to the world so their humanity can be seen and heard. And today, we have a couple of new voices to in the podcast studio. One of them is Conrad Stewart, who recently was released from federal prison himself. And I'd like to, before we go on, have Conrad introduce himself a little bit.

CONRAD STEWART: Hello, my name is Michael Conrad Stewart. I did 26 years incarcerated in the Federal Bureau of Prisons. I was released February 7, 2022. I was an IRAA recipient. And I'm just glad to be here and be able to give my voice to the conversation.

PAM: I want to explain. So, Conrad just mentioned IRAA. And you know, More Than Our Crimes is dedicated to advocating for second chances, an opportunity for people who have been in prison for a long time to show that they are rehabilitated and are ready to return to their communities and families. IRAA is a DC law that is an example of how to do that. IRAA is the Incarceration Reduction Amendment Act, and it says that if you've been in prison for at least 15 years, and you went in under the age of 25, you have the opportunity to go before a judge and demonstrate how you've changed and developed and you can return home. And this is the kind of law that we want to advocate for everywhere. In fact, we'd also like to change the age requirement, because really, anybody who has committed a crime 15, 20, 25 years ago has changed and developed, and we believe has the right to hope. 

But what is sort of making advocacy for second chances a little bit difficult right now is that in DC and a lot of other cities across the country, crime, including violent crime, is spiking and has spiked really since the pandemic. And so you have a lot of people who are very afraid, rightfully so. I understand it. On my own block in DC, for instance, there was a carjacking literally almost in front of my apartment building. So, people are afraid. And that makes it harder to have conversations about why people who have committed crimes deserve the opportunity for a second chance. 

We have another new voice in the podcast studio today. And that's Nona Dufie. She actually is founder of Soundeazy, which is the producer for Voices Unlocked. But she also has an interesting personal story that will give her...I think she'll play a very valuable role in this conversation today about how to bridge the divide between two types of hurt people: those who commit crimes and those who are impacted by them. Nana, want to introduce yourself?

NANA DUFIE: Thank you for saying my name so eloquently and gracefully. I am, as Pam mentioned, founder of Soundeazy. I am a yogi, I am a Reiki, I'm an energy healer. I am someone who believes in justice and human rights and civil rights. That's very important to me. And my story is one of being a widow, essentially. My husband, as you know, Pam and Conrad, was murdered in 2006. He was a wonderful man. His name was Lassana Diawara and he was a taxi cab driver at the time, an immigrant, 28 years old, from Mali in West Africa, a very kind and gentle soul and someone who was really in this country just to make it, like all of us.  Some of us were born here and have generations of history in this country and others are more recent immigrants. 

He was on the road to becoming an American, to live a dream —  a dream which involved freedom for him, because he came from quite a well-to-do family in Mali, but a family that had a lot of rules and regulations around your future. Very conservative, a very, very, very conservative family. Your wife and your husband are chosen for you, your career path typically is chosen for you, you wind up — in his case —  working within the family business, the family structure, which was natural gas for him. And he left what would have been a comfortable life to come to the United States, to actually wind up living a very difficult life. He toiled as an undocumented immigrant, as a very young man at the time when he came here; I think he was still a teenager. But he was able to come on a university visa. He was accepted to California State University. And he very quickly learned from his father that he was going to have to pay back every red cent that his father invested in him coming to the United States and it set him on a rampage; it really drove him to hurry up and pay his dad back. He did not want to owe his father. He left school as a result, and he started working. I won't say it was a good choice or it was a bad choice. But it was definitely a turning point in his life here; that's when he started to struggle. 

A lot of people are familiar with the life of an undocumented person; in some ways it may be similar to the life of a formerly incarcerated person, where you're running up against a lot of barriers, a lot of legal barriers, job applications, documentation, all that kind of stuff. So, he was doing a lot of odd jobs, just trying to find a way and trying to find a community that would accept him and that would help facilitate his journey. We met in late 2004. We dated for about a year and a half. We moved in together in February of 2006. We got married in April of 2006. And on May 31, 2006, he was murdered. So, it was a very, needless to say, turbulent and devastating event in my life, my family's life, his family's life. That was the first cataclysmic event that ever happened in my life.

PAM: Was this a random act of violence? He didn't know the person?

NANA: This was a random act of violence. He did not know the person. The young man was apprehended in the aftermath of this on the same day. He was brought in. And eventually there was a plea deal.

PAM: In most cases, that happens. 

NANA: Yeah, he had just been released from juvenile detention for breaking and entering, maybe not more than a month prior to this happening. So that was taken into consideration. And he wound up being charged as an adult, although he was 15 years old when he did this. And then he became 16 and we were in the court system, trying to figure out what's going to happen to this person who killed my husband. Through the plea, he was given 34 years for his actions. And the assistant DA told me that more than likely he'd do about 17, if all goes well for him. 

Here we are, at year 17. I haven't heard anything, but also haven't followed up. I've been very much living my life and working through my own trauma as a result of this, and on a course of healing. This is why I'm such a dedicated yogi and have become a Reiki. And healing and ascension of my own spirit, and of my own course in life, has really been my focus -- not on the young person who killed my husband. Everything I do, everything I say, every action I take, I still feel like I'm married to him, even though he's not here, because I don't believe that we die of the soul, I think we just die of the flesh. And so, much of what I do is of the consciousness that he's aware of things, he's near me, he's by me. I want to make sure that his life was not cut short, at the age of 28, in vain. And I want to make sure that the way I carry myself, especially for those who knew him and who know me and associate us with one another, that I conduct myself and I carry myself and I involve myself in things that he would have done, or he would be proud of. I represent him in this lifestyle.

PAM: This is our challenge, really, if you look at the moment in time that we're in -- you know, where we have, on the one hand, rising crime, which is a major concern, and we have a culture that has resulted in mass incarceration, large numbers of people who are serving long periods of time in prison, predominantly Black. So you have these two opposing wrongs. And one of the blog posts that More Than Our Crimes published, and that we talked about in one of our previous episodes, is that hurt people hurt people. Very often, we as a society don't ask too much about the why behind this 15-year-old, for instance. How did he get to that point? And often if you really delve into their stories, and we were just hearing earlier from Conrad about his, you'll find that the person who committed the crime came from really damaged, traumatic childhoods. So, it's like a hurt person is often the one who hurts another. 
 
I think our challenge is, how do we build a bridge of understanding and healing between those two communities? So we can address this together? That's what this episode is about. And we're going to be hearing later from somebody who's still in prison who is grappling with these questions. But, Conrad, I would love to hear some of your thoughts as you were listening to Nana, about how do we bridge, since you're coming from two different sides here.

CONRAD: I just truly believe that when it comes to these particular hurt people hurt people, this is a fact: I can't deny the fact that when I came up or when I was young, I got desensitized to violence very young. Unfortunately, I had watched my father shoot my mother at an early age. So, when you're dealing with a young child's mind and he's watching, he's seeing how the world works. In his small mind, it's "okay, this is how I solve my issues," if he sees his mother and his father arguing. Now, violence becomes prevalent to the young child, especially me, at a very young age. When you become desensitized, then you take the humanity out of the equation. 

When I was listening to the sister explain the situation, the first thing that popped into my mind is how she was saying this young youth had already been taken into the custody of the juvenile detention center. So the first thing that popped my mind is, why wasn't he given the proper guidance and protection then? Like, even for me, when I was in the Oak Hill (detention) facility, which was for DC youth and is now New Beginnings, I already knew in my mind that this wasn't the type of life I wanted to live, I didn't want to have nobody telling me when to wake up, when to go to sleep and, you know, how to live my life. However, I didn't have the guidance; I didn't have an education. When I went to prison at the age of 18, I was a functional illiterate. That doesn't mean I was dumb or had an innate abilty to be evil or mean. No, that just means I was underdeveloped and didn't have the proper guidance to be a productive member of society or citizen. 

What I understand now is that we have to go back to the root cause of a lot of these crimes. Just having this healing process between both ends of the spectrum is very pivotal. That is very critical. And we should not only speak about it. These are things we should start now trying to develop policy around, and really get those who represent us, which is the politicians, get them to really listen. And that's another way we can use our voice, through voting and, and things of that nature. So for me, I just see that we need to bridge the gap through communication, right?  Understanding the humanity behind the tragedy. And for me, it just took years of a lot of self correction, self analysis, and self development. But this was only possible because I reached that level where I stopped giving onus for my actions to others. I took onus for them and said, "Hey, I'm a functional illiterate. So that means I need to educate myself. I mean, I need to be in halls where knowledge is being assimilated, where I can evolve and grow as a human being."
 
So, you know, I understand the emotions when a tragedy happens and the notion of revenge, how this fury and this anger takes over the individual. However, you got to get back to the root because it becomes a cycle. I came in in '96; it was the same crime wave. So here it is now, what 2023? We're faced with the same. So, whatever we're doing is not working: the draconian sentences, sentencing people to 20, 30 years. This is not stopping the damage caused by these young adolescents that find themselves in terrible situations at a young age.

PAM: Well, so recently, a member of the More Than Our Crimes network.... His name is Ricardo Davis. He's currently serving time in a federal prison in New Jersey called FCI Fairton. And he told me about a class that he took in prison, and now is teaching because he found it so helpful, called victim impact. I actually hadn't been aware until he told me about this that there's prisoners inside who have gotten to the point like you did, of grappling with the impact of what they've done on not only their own family, but families like yours, and the whole community. By the way, I should make the point here that he's teaching the class; this is not prison staff. Very often, you'll hear that the prisoners come together and teach the classes that they need if they're not getting it from the prison itself. 

So, I interviewed Ricardo a little bit about what it takes to get to the point that you're ready for that kind of a class because you often aren't when you first go into prison. Now, before we listen to this first soundbite from him, I want you understand...He mentions at one point the first prison he was in and it's called Lorton. Well, Lorton was the prison for DC residents a long time ago, I think back in like the '80s.

CONRAD: It closed down in 2000.

PAM: Yeah, so it was closed. So now, DC residents are sent into the federal system far from home. But what you need to know is that Lorton was extremely violent. So, when he talks about Lorton, you'll understand that context. Let's listen to what he has to say.

[RECORDED] RICARDO DAVIS: When you first come in, you make all type of excuses, modifying a lot of stuff that you did when you were out because you basically blame everybody else for why you're there, or for what you did. Like, that wouldn't have happened to them if they just gave the body up or if they would have only gotten out of the way or if they hadn't tried to play hero, they wouldn't have gotten hurt. Or if they wouldn't have gotten in my way and just let me go...We're blaming everybody else. When you first come in, you're still not at the point where you're ready to accept responsibility for your own actions.

My first 11 years, I was just still concentrating on doing drugs and didn't care nothing about myself, and really just was looking for any type of trouble I wanted, because I didn't care nothing about myself. But when they closed Lorton down, we were locked down a lot. I got to reflect and look at myself and [This is a call from a federal prison] look inside internally at myself and start asking questions, you know. Askng, "Why did I do this? And I was raised over in southeast Washington. I knew right from wrong; I knew I did wrong. So that's when I came across the victim impact class.

PAM: So, Conrad, we just heard Ricardo talking about this victim impact class. I'm curious: When you were in prison, did you have classes like that? And did you participate? If not, did you even hear [about them]? Was that even a discussion? And I'm sort of curious, to add on to that, what would you think about bringing people like Nana inside prison to be part of those kinds of discussions or classes?

CONRAD: Wow. Well, fortunately for me, I did take the victim impact class. It's a class that's recommended by your counselor. The counselor does somewhat facilitate the class because it's something that the BOP does require, in certain instances. I took the class; it was very impactful. I took it when I was in Big Sandy in Inez, Kentucky, in 2016. And the class was very impactful for many reasons, because of the environment I was in, first and foremost. I was in a very hostile environment. So to come out of that into a class of ease and be able to listen to stories of individuals impacted by crime... To me, it made me do a lot of self analyzation, you know, because I do it a lot. And the class is geared towards you understanding the impact and the domino effect of your crime. 

So quite naturally, for me, I took it to heart, I took it personally. Because there was no time during this tragedy in my life, when my heart wasn't heavy. So, to understand now, the mother you affected, the father you affected, the daughter, sister. And you see now the impact of it. It kind of makes you pause, and ask yourself, "Who am I?" So, like I say, it's a requirement. In certain instances, they won't even let you transfer without this.

PAM: What do you think.... I mean, the classes, obviously, are just prisoners talking amongst each other. What would you think about having people like, Nana, go into prisons to be part of a class? I know, that would be sort of radical, but...  

CONRAD: No, no, actually, that's what's needed, right? Because when you talk about bridging the gap, that's how you bridge the gap. We got to hear that angle, we got to hear the emotions. This is how change takes place, right? You know, there's a saying, "If you can't shame a man, then he won't change. But if you want to change a man, shame the man. So, out of this shame that I felt, I was changed tremendously. So imagine the ones that are harmed coming to me, sitting me down, showing me how it affected their life. And this is why I move in the circles I move in now for effective change, because now I got to be part of the solution. And this is how this occurred: from dialogue between both ends of the spectrum. And really, they do have videotapes, and they got a course; actually it's a curriculum that they have, that they use in the victim impact class. However, it is nothing like the real thing.

PAM: What do you think about that, Nana? I mean, I would think that maybe that would be hard. I mean, it's obviously not the person who committed the crime against you, directly, or indirectly, but still... Would that be too much to ask of somebody who had been victimized?

NANA: Well, I'll talk about myself, and then I'll speak about it generally, because I think those are two different conversations. For me as an individual, it's not my calling to go into prisons, at least not now. Not as I sit here, right now. The reason why is manifold. I'm very busy producing media and working in marketing. I am very much on a path of healing myself, still, right? The healing journey is continuous. And I just need what I need to heal. For me, it is important for my healing not to be defined by this moment in time, this event that happened outside of my husband's control, outside of my own control, for it to hijack my life. I want for my life to continue on. And I've worked really hard not to be dragged back into Baltimore courtrooms. And, you know, let's just face it. Nobody wants to be in prison, myself included. We were just in the sociology department building [of George Washington University], with the fluorescent lights and all of that. I didn't feel comfortable. I like to be in green spaces. I like to have light. I like to have natural light. So, like, why would I want to be in that space? I'm speaking honestly. Do I really want to disrupt the majesty that I'm trying to create for my life, the holistic way that I want to live my life, by being around friends and family and laughter, and go into spaces that nobody wants to be in? I don't even know if the correctional officers even want to be there. So, that's part of it. 

I also don't know that it's my calling, because I'm also very, very empathic. And it's very difficult for me to not take on other people's traumas and to internalize them, and for them to become a part of me. I don't watch the news, I don't watch violent television shows, I don't watch anything that has to do with sexual trauma because I internalize it and it re-traumatizes me, for all the things I've been through in my life. I have to be very, very, very careful about what I surround myself with and what I expose myself to. And I imagine that's true for other people who have been impacted, especially by violent crimes, whether directly or indirectly. I would say, for me, it's indirect. I'm not the one who was killed. But it's still, you know, it's close enough. It's a similar situation, where that's the tug of war. 

Now, my sister, she's different. She's a little bit more removed from it. She's not empathic, like myself. She's very much a caring person and somebody who wants change like myself, but she doesn't have that gene where everything causes her trauma. She can watch Unsolved Mysteries on Christmas. I mean, she does. She likes to watch Unsolved Mysteries on Christmas and Thanksgiving! And I'm like, "What are you doing?" And so she's the one who can go into prisons. And I really enjoyed working with the formerly incarcerated last weekend. And I really enjoyed that because we weren't in the prison. That's a different kind of work that I think I can do. 

Now, in general, though, I think that, absolutely it's needed. And I think people who have the capacity to be in those spaces should be, because I do believe... I felt you, Conrad, when you said it's needed. I felt the emotion behind you saying it's needed. And so I just want to know, I would love for you explain a little bit more why it's needed. 

And the second question I have behind that is...You know, I'm assuming that for someone to even take that class... Pam, I think you or maybe Ricardo mentioned that the people who are teaching the class are the same people who are in the class. There's no outside facilitator coming in. So, if the people who are in the class are learning from one another with no outside facilitation, it makes me feel that you've already arrived at a certain place, right. You've already come to a place of perspective of understanding, of self transformation. Of course, more work is needed always, until the day we leave this planet. But it's telling me that you already made a lot of inroads on your own or through experiences, or epiphanies or prayer or whatever it was. So why is it that you then need someone like myself to come in? What's the missing piece? And then the other question I have is, if you can remember my questions, is, do the conversations and the workshopping that you do, does it bring you back to the impact that it has on you, not just on the so-called victims? And you know that I hate that word, victim. But does it also bring you back to, "How did this impact me?" Because I'm a big believer in everything starts with you.

CONRAD: I say it's necessary, because when you talk about closure and healing, it goes both ways. And for myself, what I found out, is that the more I was able to accept all the negative attributes or names that was given to me by the person who I harmed or their family, rather, it showed me how much I need to grow. And I know, I understand the notion of revenge, right? And I say I understand, because that's a natural reaction. However, we come for healing purposes. This is what the class on victim impact is supposed to do -- allow the individual to see the harm that you caused and how it affects others. We all go through the same emotions; it's just on a different spectrum. Maybe sometimes it's denial, a state of denial, or, you know, we like to play the blame game like Ricardo said. But at the end of the day, when we go and close the doors, and we lock in for the night, we got to deal with ourselves. 

So, the reason why I say it's necessary...Like I said, they have videotapes, but there's nothing like that emotion, raw emotion, the energy of the individual who was actually harmed, speaking it, and you taking ownership of that and understand, okay, this is closure for me too. Because that's not what's happening to us when we get incarcerated. When we get incarcerated, there's more harm, there's more damage.

PAM: You know, Ricardo actually addresses your question a little bit in the next soundbite. Because I asked him, how do you go about it? In the previous interview, he talked about the fact that people initially are not ready for the victim impact class because they're still making excuses. They're still deflecting, until they get to the point of starting to realize, okay, wait a minute, I need to look at my own responsibility in this. Then they're ready for this class. And that's why nobody...I mean, Ricardo said it took him 11 years before he took the class. 

But what's interesting is, you'll hear him talk about trying to get the guys to realize all the ripple effects of their crime. And I have to tell you, one of the reasons why More Than Our Crimes exists is that people learn and relate through stories. And you can talk about statistics, but it will leave people cold. But when we hear a story like yours, a personal story, with all the little details that make you real and human, we relate to you, your heart sort of stops, and then you're really listening. And when you hear Ricardo talk about the types of ripple effects he gets the guys to think about, it would be much stronger if it wasn't the guys saying it to themselves. But to hear about those ripple effects through a story, a personal story, from the person directly impacted, would be much more effective. So, Ricardo is going to talk a little bit about how he tries to talk about ripple effects in the class.

[RECORDED] RICARDO: The whole thing about victim impact is trying to get them to see how the ripple effects of their actions affects everybody. Once you can do that, then we can start opening up a general conversation about how we affect them, hurt the victim's family hurt your family, hurt society, emotionally, physically, financially, getting them to see that when you throw that rock and in the pond, that ripple effect, it hits everybody. Well, if I can get a brother to see that if you burn the store down and that's the store that your mother gotta go to to get her medicine every morning, maybe you will be reluctant to burn that store down. And that's the basis of victim impact, showing someone that you affect everybody. Because a lot of us don't look at it see that we affect not only ourselves, but the community, the school, the corner store, we affect everybody. Even if I steal your car, I'm affecting the brother trying to get up and go to work in the morning because he has five kids, he got to pay his bills. And he got to spend more money because, guess what, he got to take the bus and maybe the subway.

PAM: I also asked Ricardo how the victim impact classes helped him personally. And I think he was quite eloquent about that. Let's take a listen.

[RECORDED] RICARDO: Well, it really helped me as far as me internalizing my whole life and my actions and deeds, and put me on a path to right my wrongs and see things from other people's point of view. In southeast, when I was a little kid, all we used to do as throw rocks at buses and cars and stuff. And I used to hide my hands like I ain't did it, and that carried on through life, because I was quick to throw a rock and hide my hand and that equates to not taking your responsibility. So throughout the time that I took victim impact, I learned to accept my responsibility for my actions. And then I began to deal with my character again, because it takes a lifetime to build a character but only a moment to destroy it. And I destroyed my character. It's been a long journey, but I have forgiven myself and I hope one day, people who I hurt, especially my family, can forgive me.

PAM: Ricardo talked to me about something I hadn't really thought of before. And that is that none of this reflection on your impact and taking responsibility can be possible without first forgiving yourself and learning to love yourself. I hadn't considered that. And I'm curious what you think about that? Is that a necessary first step? And what does that process look like?

CONRAD: For me, personally, forgiving myself took time. I think the process required giving yourself purpose. I had to really like dig deep and try to understand that, man, this is not who I am. Regardless of all the negative names they tried to attribute to me because of the crime, I always understood that I was better than that. So, I think the love for yourself comes in by actually doing something about yourself, right? And what I mean by doing something about yourself is this: I told you, when I came in I was a functional illiterate. So, education was a priority in my mind. 

I defined myself by my own names, right? Through the acronyms that I gave myself, you know, the shorthand. But, you know, look: Through it all, forgiveness is a journey. You got to live with that for the rest of your life. And I told myself that. So by me living with this tragedy for the rest of my life, I do the work of trying to stop others from having to feel the same pain. I think the notion is that we don't hurt, or we're not suffering from our crimes outside of the physical confinement. But we are suffering, you know, emotionally, mentally, like any other person would suffer during a tragedy.

PAM: So, Nana, one of the things that was going through my mind while listening to Conrad and then Ricardo is what about the person who's been impacted like yourself? Is it possible to forgive? What does forgiveness mean? 

NANA: I think it is possible to forgive. I don't think I ever needed to forgive the young man who killed Lassana because I never ever hated him. But that's just me. I never put much energy toward him. In the beginning, I did what I felt was necessary because it was a murder case, right? And we were called by the assistant DA to come in. And so, I was going through the motions of the process that was put before me. And I was young, too, I was 26 years old. It took some time of just navigating it to understand that I don't necessarily have to participate in this process, It's not a requirement; I have a choice in the matter, whether to participate in the entire process, including the forgiveness process, right? And I think it's because of the kind of person I am; it's just a little bit my nature. 
 
I also got some great advice from a colleague who is like a second mom to me, who was with me at work. I think the day prior to me having to go to one of the court hearings, in the aftermath of all this, she saw my nervousness, and she asked me what I was nervous about. And I was nervous about internalizing, because of how I am, and seeing this person for the first time, the perpetrator, for lack of a better word, and never being able to forget their face. And she just said, "Don't look at him; just don't look at him."  That's the best advice I ever received from anyone: not to look at him. And it wasn't just because I don't know what he looks like, I literally don't know what he looks like, maybe not even the back of his head, for real, because I just kept looking down. But it also was the spark that led me to not pay attention to him, overall. Right? Not pay attention to him, not make it about him. And so, yeah, he has my forgiveness because I never really made it about him. 

I also learned some things about his tumultuous and disjointed upbringing and things he was exposed to: broken home, incarcerated father, mother on drugs, lead poisoning, so many cousins being raised by a grandparent who probably had too much on her plate. This is not to make excuses ever, because other people who've been impacted by something similar may feel that way: "Wait a minute, are you taking their side?" No, I'm in reality, I'm in reality, that these are the things that lead people to have, whether it be mental illness, or trauma, or lack of self awareness, lack of self identity, lack of empathy, or feeling for other people. If you don't love yourself, if you don't care about yourself, if you haven't been taught to prioritize your own needs, why would you care about somebody else? Right? And so I'm just in reality about that. And I can forgive those things. Absolutely. Because if I can forgive them in other people, why can't I forgive them in a situation that is close to me or has impacted me? But... You have a question?

PAM: I would say that that's special, because there are other people who go the other way. When you were talking, I had a flashback. There's a friend of mine who is in prison with life without parole, and he's turned into this wonderful, wonderful person. And I've been racking my brains about how to get him a rehearing in some way, to show he's ready to go home after more than 30 years. And, maybe I shouldn't have done this, but I called a woman who was there when her partner was killed. And as soon as she heard his name, this is more than 30 years later, she said, "He can burn in hell" with such anger and wrath that it was like it had just happened. She had not moved on. So, your attitude... I mean, a lot of people are focused on revenge.  They have made it about him. 

NANA: Yeah, I understand that revenge though. I was I was in that place. It's work. Even forgiving yourself is work. You can forgive yourself for having done something and then you get retriggered. And then you hate yourself again. And then you have to do the work all over again of forgiving yourself. It's work. So I can't blame that person. I don't say that I'm completely separate from that person. I understand that rage, that emotion of, "Wait a minute, my loved one will never come back." And so, why then should I give any grace to someone who is still living and who maybe has a chance to see the light of day again or even gets to feel the sun rays on their cheek through a prison cell? My husband will never feel the sunrays. You know, whatever it is, right? I understand that too. And I think that's a very valid emotion. Emotions are valid. 

I think the conversation about forgiveness and who that person is today are two separate conversations. So that was what I was about to say before you ask that question. I think it's my business if I forgive the individual who killed my husband and nobody else's; no one should judge me for it, no one should even expect it. It's my business, it was my own internal process that I needed for myself. To me, forgiveness was release, so I needed to release myself from it. But it doesn't release him from anything. Now he is on his own path. It's not my business whether or not he is growing and evolving. That's for him to decide. 

In terms of whether or not he's ever released on parole, or you know, he's granted release on his due date, that's a conversation for the powers that be to have about whether this person is no longer a danger to society and should be released and be able to live a new life and enjoy freedom. Right? To me, those are two separate conversations. I think, for sure, he needs to forgive himself. Probably he needs forgiveness from his own family and his own community, because we're social creatures, and we live amongst one another. And we, we don't thrive by ourselves.  So, you do need that acceptance and that embrace from the people that are going to be in your life. But does he need it from me? I'm not in his life. And he's not in my life. I don't think so. I don't think that it's my place to forgive him. Nor do I think he deserves or has the right to ask it from me. I think it is an individual process for each one of us. Our paths crossed on one day, in one instance, and the rest is history. But that is my feeling about it. That's not to say that that's how somebody else who has been impacted by something similar should feel. I would never dictate or imply how somebody else should feel. But this is my journey, because I really don't want my life to be defined by this one thing.  

I also simply don't believe that someone who has committed a crime, whether they're incarcerated for it or not, because that's another conversation, should be defined by their one act. If they've changed, if they've grown, they're still living, they still have something to give...I want this young man to contribute to society in a different way. It would be the greatest joy of my life to know that he is far removed from that young 15-year-old and that he's a completely different person, that he's somebody that I can literally sit down next to like, I'm sitting down next to Conrad. I'm not saying you did anything like that. I'm just saying like, it would give me so much joy, and it would be such a beautiful thing for me to know, that that's his former life. All those cells have died. He's a new person. I may never know that, but that's what I want for anyone who's done something. 

We're all here to live and grow and learn from our experiences and grow our soul before we leave here, and leave with some lessons. And I don't think anybody should be robbed of that, even people who have committed violent crimes. 

PAM: Well, that's a very special attitude. And I'm very appreciative of you. And so is Ricardo. I shared with him how his interview was going to be used. And I shared who else was gonna be on the show, including your story. And I want to play for you his response.

[RECORDED] RICARDO: That's a hard one. Because we like to say that time heals wounds, but it doesn't. There's no time to heal a wound like that, when you lose somebody special like that. The only thing  can tell her is that I admire her, first and foremost, and that I understand her grief as well, because on one hand, she don't want to see this person do a lot of time. But on the other hand, she don't want her husband forgotten. 

It takes a special person to forgive. Forgiveness is not for the person who victimizes you. Forgiveness is for her, so she can move on in her life and not be bitter and angry and consumed with revenge. You know, hate can eat you up inside. And that's a hard pill to swallow because not everybody can forgive. I understand the tug of war between good and evil, and hopefully one day, she'll find it in herself...If I was her, I'd want to meet that person. That's me. And I'd also want to see if this person has forgiven themself for taking another life. I'd want to see how this person is living right now. I don't care how much of a killer you are or how crazy you are; at the end of the day, everybody knows right from wrong. And I knew right from wrong. 

But forgiveness is hard. It took me almost 27, 28 years to forgive myself for taking somebody's life and I still feel guilt and shame sometimes. I took a life and that's not me. I think everybody has some redeeming qualities in them. But they gotta work hard. It's not easy. Because you can't give somebody back a life. It's something I gotta live with for the rest of my life. So for me, I try to be the best person I can be each and every day.

PAM: I think that's a good note to close out this episode. I hope that everybody who's listening or watching finds this as thought-provoking is we did and discusses it over dinner with their friends and family. And meanwhile, please follow and subscribe to our podcast and share it with others. Thank you.