MICHAEL CONRAD STEWART: Welcome to Voices Unlocked. I'm Conrad Stewart, your co-host today with Pam Bailey. More Than Our Crimes is producing this podcast and our mission is to bring the humanity back to incarceration for individuals who will be returning to society one day.
Today, on Voices Unlocked, we're doing part one of a two-part episode, dealing with lockdowns in federal institutions and how they affect individuals behind the walls. First of all, we’ve got to understand what these lockdowns are. You have what is known as a full lockdown and a modified lockdown in the federal Bureau of Prisons, and most of these are in the penitentiaries. For the majority of my stay in the BOP, I was in these penitentiaries. So, I understand the effect it has on programming and rehabilitation.
A full lockdown is when a whole institution is locked down. There's no kitchen workers, there's no one going to work. The whole institution is locked down and correctional officers are doing all the work. So, that means they are preparing the food, they're taking the inmates back and forth for showers, they are doing all the daily, essential things that inmates normally do. It's now dependent upon the police to bring them food, get their clothes, their mail, etc. And lockdown means that we're in the cell for 24 hours, seven days a week. They may have the TVs on, they may not. So, that means it's just you and another individual locked into the cell all day long. You need to understand the psychological effect since we’re social creatures, and understand that we are developed mentally and psychologically through our learned experience. If these experiences are with only the one individual you're in the cell with, what type of mind are we producing?
A modified lockdown is somewhat similar, but you come out for an hour in the morning, and you might come out for an hour in the evening. But nevertheless, you're still confined to either your pod or your housing unit. And in this case, they let some workers out for essential work, like laundry, food, commissary. But you're still confined to a small space. Only for a few hours do you come out of your cell, then you return at whatever time they dictate and say it’s necessary to go back into our cells.
I did 26 years. For the last 10 years of my incarceration, lockdown was the function of prison. This was how the BOP, penitentiaries and FCIs [medium-security prisons] functioned. In 2010, I was in Coleman II USP, which is in Florida. And we were only out of our cells for 155 days. The other half, we were in our cells on some type of modified lockdown. The warden at that time, he had in his mind that anytime something happened...meaning that anytime there was an incident or emergency within the institution [we had to go on lockdown]...They have a code that the COs use, we call it the deuces, right? Because you can hear it; it has this unique sound. When you hear that, you'll hear the keys start jiggling from the police because they're responding to some type of incident. It’s a code that the COs use to notify other COs that they have an incident in a particular part of the institution. And when we hear this, we already know, nine times out of 10, they're gonna say, "Lock down! Return to your cells."
However, in 2010, the warden at the institution (who was, I believe, Warden Drew) told us that every time the deuces go off, you're going into your cells for 10 days. We didn't like it. The staff didn't like it. But that's the way he ran his institution.
PAM BAILEY: There's a lot of information in the news lately about solitary confinement. And usually when you hear solitary confinement, they're talking about something called the hole or the special housing unit (SHU), where people are sent mostly for punishment or investigation. But the lockdowns have actually blurred the line between general population, where everybody is, and the hole. I heard that it actually started getting worse in maybe 2018 or 2017. And the COVID pandemic actually sort of solidified it and made it institutionalized. The prediction I was hearing from the people inside was that COVID would make [lockdowns] increasingly the norm. That's proven to be true. The public health emergency has been declared ended, but the lockdowns have continued as the norm and you're going to hear about that.
CONRAD: And I want to throw it out to y'all, is this justified? Is this security or is this just, you know, abuse of authority? It's ironic how all the institutions where DC residents are housed in the federal Bureau of Prisons are the most restricted institutions. I went to USP Big Sandy in 2016, which is in Kentucky. And, as soon as I got there, it was on lockdown. Out of my first 12 months, I believe, nine to 10 months, we were locked down. So, this shows you the inconsistencies in prison, and it shows you how the institutions are abusing this method of control. It's really breaking the spirit of a lot of individuals who will return to society. And we will need these individuals to, you know, contribute as citizens.
PAM: Now, our first interview is from the Coleman penitentiary in Florida that you mentioned. I chose to interview somebody from there – it's actually where my co-founder Rob Barton currently is – because it's one of the worst when it comes to lockdowns, and particularly full lockdowns. It feels to me, because I have to communicate with my cofounder all the time, like it's most of the time, to be honest. I can't get through to him because when they're on lockdown, they cannot communicate. They can't make phone calls, they can't do emails; letters are the only thing and very often letters at Coleman are delayed, or I may not even get them at all. So, the first person I interviewed is named Artavious Love. He starts off by talking about how it's become the norm.
ARTAVIOUS LOVE: The only thing that is consistent is inconsistency at Coleman. I would say 40% of the time, we're locked down. We're locked down most of the weekends, if they deem that they're not able to facilitate the staffing or whatever other reason. If the wind blows hard, we're locked down. The power might go out or the cable might go down or the thunder might crackle too loud. But the majority of the time is due to understaffing. There's a problem with the management side and staffing here because the incentive is for people to work overtime. They run a skeleton crew of COs so that they can give them overtime. And when they decide they want to call out or take their leave, then they're understaffed, usually on weekends, holidays and throughout the summer months.
PAM: The second interview I did is with Brooke Tolliver, who had the misfortune of going from one fire to another. He was in Coleman, and then was transferred to the high-security penitentiary called Hazelton in West Virginia, which is known as "Misery Mountain" for a reason. Now, as I mentioned before, and as you heard, Coleman is known for full lockdowns for long periods of time. Hazelton has more modified lockdowns as a routine, [but they are] never ending, and it can be just as bad.
He talks about when you're locked in your cell, a very small cell, for long periods of time or constantly for many hours a day with somebody else, even somebody you get along with, it can be a real problem. Try to imagine this yourself: being locked into your room with either a best friend or... I have a friend who recently got to a new prison and he was assigned to somebody who he had known before. And he used to tell me how much he couldn't stand him. So, when I heard they were locked in together, to be honest, I was a little afraid, knowing both those people like I do. They're both a little bit volatile. Can you imagine, then, locking them in together? That's potentially really dangerous. Brooke makes that point, but says even if you get along, even if that person is a friend, if you're together too much in a very small space, it's an issue. So, take a listen.
BROOKE TOLLIVER : A large porta potty. That's what a cell is, because once you put a waste disposal device in a cell, that controls everything because you have stench coming out of there. Do you understand what I'm saying? You have to keep that clean at all times. You have to constantly clean it and some people don't go to that length. They're just in the cell. So that might bring cellies to blows like, "Oh man, you ain't cleaning the cell?" You have to deal with their personality. By yourself, you can have time to think, you can write, you can do different things without disturbance. So, you got people that come to a boiling point with their cellies.
CONRAD: What I believe, and a lot of people don't understand is, that when you're incarcerated and you're doing time, 80% of whether you can do your time effectively and efficiently has to do with your cell, your living conditions. Me personally, I knew that in order for me to be able to study, to read and be able to really just collect my thoughts and be efficient throughout the day,,,When you have an individual that you're not getting along with or you have personality clashes with, this interrupts your whole day. Even when it's time for you to call home, you have these things and these issues on your mind and you can't really enjoy the little freedom that you have. Because now you're constantly thinking about, if I go in my cell, is he going to have the room dirty or have these foreign smells in the cell, or is he gonna talk to me a whole lot? Because a lot of times, you might get a cellie who, the way they get through their time is to talk and conversate and be social. When you're in that state of mind, especially if you're a critical thinker and want to stay in thought, you want to be quiet. You know, I want to just get my thoughts together, I want to grab a book, I want to study I want to kind of like exercise my mind. You get these cellies with these different personalities, and then they take you wrong because you're quiet. They're thinking, "Oh, did I do something wrong? Did I offend you?" When, in reality, it's just that you want your personal space. So doing your bid [sentence] effectively starts off with your cellie.
PAM: You know what it made me think of, that's related to our normal lives? When you're riding in an Uber, there's actually an option you can check to say, “I don't want to talk” if you don't feel like talking, because some Uber drivers want to talk. Now, you have the option to say that. Imagine, however, that you can't check that box. And you're in the cell for 30 or 40 days.
What's interesting is that normally, and people don't realize this, the only place you're actually truly by yourself is an ADX, which is a supermax prison. In most cases, even in the hole, you have a cellie. There have been occasions when somebody's by themselves. But they've really made that stricter now, ever since Bernie Madoff committed suicide in his cell. They don't want that to happen, because it causes very bad publicity. And the BOP, the Bureau of Prisons, doesn't want that. So, a rule came down that basically said, do not allow anyone to be alone in their cell. And the bad part about that is that even when staff may know that two people shouldn't be together, they'll put them together.
CONRAD: And this is where the issue arises. Because it's like, they know it's a volatile situation. But they only intervene after the fact. And you know, I had a cellie one time, man, he would just stay at the door, trying to talk all day. First of all, you’re in an uncertain situation, because nine times out of 10, when you go to the special housing unit, you don't know your duration, you haven't got your incident report yet, so it's kind of like you got all these uncertainties going on. So, you really want calm. This is the tragedy of it; I ain't gonna lie: Now you're putting people together, and the only way they’ll get separated is when they have an incident or they start fighting and they're scuffling. And then the COs come in there, they spray mace, so it's like you're getting taxed double time. Because now you're not only gonna get maced, and they're gonna come beat you up, but now you're gonna get another incident report and possibly stay in the SHU longer. The people that make these policies really are not looking at the humane side.
PAM: There's a lot of other impacts of lockdowns. We've talked about one, which is being alone with the same person for long periods of time. But there's a whole bunch of other impacts that lockdowns have that we probably don't think about. And my next interview is with Donald Ferebe, who also is in the Hazelton penitentiary in West Virginia. He's going to give a lot of examples.
DONALD FEREBE: Because of the amount of lockdowns we're having, the inmates are unable to program. Programming is one of the main things that we need in order to lower our security levels and get out of the penitentiaries to the FCIs (lower-security institutions). If we're constantly being locked down, we're not being allowed to program, which means we're not able to lower our security status in any way. On top of that, weekends are the main days that our family members are off. Every other prison normally allows us to have visits on weekends. Here, we're only allowed to have visits on Mondays and Tuesdays. Plus, every federal holiday, we don't have visits. You're forcing our family to come for just half a day, after they've got to take a day off to come see us.* That's really one of the most major things happening with these particular lockdowns.
Not to mention medical (care). Because, by us not coming out until 10 o'clock… (You see,) we really need a half a day [out] in a penitentiary. That means all of these guys who have medical issues, whether it's getting lab work done or getting X-rays done, they're being forced to wait for weeks and weeks and weeks at a time. You have guys here who had broken bones, who were not even taken to Medical. I think I had two of the guys email you. Each one had a broken foot, which made it even harder for them to do day-to-day things like walking to chow, because there's no way for us to get to Medical. We have guys who have documented with the staff that they need to see Medical, that the swelling is too severe, and they're being told, well, Medical is not here or Medical is on a unit or so many things…as small as dental. You have a dental hygienist; she works in the unit more than she works in actual Medical. So, this is one of the reasons why the guys who need dental care aren't able to get their teeth cleaned. It becomes a thing where if you don't need a tooth extraction, everything else gets pushed behind. Something as small as yearly dental cleanings, we're six, seven years behind, literally.
PAM: There's another part of the interview with Donald that I found particularly interesting. Remember, at Hazelton, they use a lot of modified lockdowns. What's interesting about that: I think that the reason why they focus on modified (lockdowns) so much is because they don't have to report them as lockdowns. So, for instance, when I went to Senator Manchin's office to try to get him to intervene with a lot of the problems at Hazelton and I mentioned lockdowns, and he went to the BOP staff, they said, "Oh, no, no, no, we weren't locked down that many days." And it's because it was only parts of days. But, as Donald talks about next, that inconsistency of schedule, which is what a modified lockdown is – you're out, then you're in, you're out, and then you're in, and you're not really even quite sure when each starts and ends – that can have a very bad effect on mental health. And that's what he talks about.
DONALD: I've been incarcerated for the last 28 years. My whole...I'm gonna say my whole bid is based on scheduling. Scheduling is what keeps us...We know what we have to do, we know where we need to be. Like, I have a job. I'm one of the few guys here who actually has a job. But even having a job, I'm not sure what time to wake up, I'm not sure what time I'm coming out of my cell, I'm not sure what time I'm going to work. This throws off the sleep pattern. Because sometimes they may open the door at 10 o'clock. Sometimes they may open it at 12 o'clock. Sometimes it may not open at all. So, now, a person...You have to have some type of structure. If you don't have structure, Ms. Bailey, you're gonna have anarchy. It just is what it is. And that's the main problem here at USP Hazelton. There's no structure.
CONRAD: Yes, man. The brother made a very valid point because consistency is key and makes all of us really productive in life. I remember when I was down at Coleman II and I was working in laundry for seven years. I was able to work for seven years, gaining not only the social skills, but the work ethic of getting up every morning, right? And this is why I'm able to thrive now, because I'm used to getting up early in the morning, going to work. And I had a schedule, you know. I'd get up at 6 o'clock in the morning, go to work, start work at 7:30. I'd get off at 1:30. So, I had a daily routine and schedule that helped develop me. And it helped me not only from a personal point of view, but even from a business point of view, because I did everything when I was in the laundry. I was able to do the clerking, the washing, the folding. I even did the pay slips. So, understand that without these experiences, I wouldn't be able to come out here and understand the work environment, how to have work relationships. My two supervisors were females. So, it taught me how to have rapport with authority (figures), and an understanding of how to work with authorities. When you have these long lockdowns, you don't develop these skills, which is the sum total of our experience. If we don't have this experience, then how will we ever grow and evolve? So, he made a very valid point about consistency. Consistency is part of development.
PAM: It's interesting because I recently had a lot of the individuals in prison keep what I call a lockdown diary for me, so I could see what it actually looks like on a day-to-day basis. And very often, at Hazelton, they'd be saying they normally would be let out of their cells at 6:30 in the morning. But now, it's more like 9:30 or 10 in the morning. And that may sound like a small difference. But to them, going out just those few hours later, and not knowing the night before what's going to happen, is really disruptive.
CONRAD: So, we want to end right there with part one, and we're going to pick up next time with this discussion. We're going to deal more with the why. Why are they locked down? And so, I want you all to stay tuned because there's a very dramatic ending to this episode. I want you all to tune in. And I want you to also subscribe because you don't want to miss it.
* Most prisons open the cell doors at 6 a.m. to begin the day.Tthis gives the staff around eight and a half to nine hours to be productive. The problem comes when the prison intentionally opens at 10 a.m. Within one hour of opening, they have to start delivering lunch, which may take about another hour and puts us at around 1 p.m. Medical and psychology staff leave near 3:45 p.m., religiously. Ttherefore, as far as Medical goes, the timeline for assessing inmates and giving them proper care shrinks to around two hours per day ( intentionally). And by the time visitors are processed and allowed to enter, it's 11 or 11:30 a.m. (when they are supposed to start at 8).
